Jack Labanauskas
This conversation is part of the “Finding Buried Treasures: Getting Reacquainted with Innovative EM Articles and their Authors” series. Originally published (EM January and February 2002, in issues #79 & 80). Francis Lucille is a spiritual teacher of the tradition of Advaita Vedanta (non-duality).
Jack Labanauskas: In the Enneagram Monthly we have focused on understanding various personality styles. We have gone into great detail examining the hues and shades, the subdivisions of personality traits, the passions, the motivations, the instinctual energies that fuel the way we are in the world. Most people I talk with, including myself, study the Enneagram to recognize habitual behaviors, so that we’d be less likely to repeat outmoded patterns. Another expectation is to develop an attitude of understanding and compassion for ourselves and others. As we become aware of how automatic responses limit us, we can ease the ego's grip. I think it would be beneficial to put more attention on what lies beyond the territory of the personality.
Francis Lucille: I don't see personality as the source of our problems. I see ignorance as the source of our problems. Ignorance is a mistaken identity. It is a belief and a feeling that we, consciousness, what we call I, is the personality. There is nothing wrong with the personality. Ignorance is the mistaken identity. If there is ignorance then all the potential of the personality, God given qualities and distinctive features, are misused and become a slave to the illusion of being a separate entity. When ignorance is removed the personality’s potential is actualized.
JL: So do you see personality as a defense mechanism that we use in order to function in the world while trapped in ignorance?
FL: I see personality as a collection of distinctive features, both physical and psychological, in every human being. There is nothing intrinsically good or bad about having a personality. The problems arise when I believe that I am this set of features or that I am an object, something created. This invisible consciousness that we are, that is hearing and understanding these words in this moment, I believe it is the body/mind. Because this body/mind is fragile, dependent upon the surroundings for its survival, then all kinds of behaviors, and patterns are triggered by this original mistake, the belief that I am an object. This is the original sin, the origin of conflict in society and within ourselves.
JL: Most of us have been living with our original mistake, this original sin, believing it to be our personality or at least acting as if we believed that for a long time. Many of our habits feel firmly cemented and difficult to change. Even after realizing that we are not our personality, don’t we have to go through a process of unwinding our ignorance, spooling off its layers, like string off a ball that has been wound up over a lifetime? Or is this a waste of time and our essential state is always already there?
FL: It depends on what the motivation would be for us to undertake this journey. If this undertaking has a personal goal such as cultivating a better ego, a better personality, an enlightened personality, then it is a mistake and a waste of energy. If we start from the understanding that what we are is consciousness, not an object, not a personality, not a body/mind. We want our motivation to cooperate with this understanding, in other words, to cooperate in the realignment of the body/mind entity with the truth. This is a different story.
This realignment is done for the purpose of celebration and for the sake of truth. In this way a relapse into ignorance will be avoided because we start from a place of truth. Whereas if we try to improve the ego that is built upon a shaky foundation, upon a mistake, any improvement that we can bring to this structure will be as shaky as the foundation.
JL: If the goal is to know the truth, but I’m still immersed in ego and ignorance, without a direct experience of the truth, and merely believing there is a truth; then, am I not stuck with using my intellect, ignorance and personality as the tools with which I define that truth?
FL: At least in this case the goal is the truth. The goal is not an improved personality. But if the goal is an improved personality, then I am perpetuating ignorance. If my goal is the truth then I will eventually find it. But if my goal is to be a better person, a better individual, a happier person, at some point I have to let go of the attachment to the body/mind to access the truth. This is not a gradual process. It is an insight, an in-seeing. There are no steps.
Jack Labanauskas: In the Enneagram Monthly we have focused on understanding various personality styles. We have gone into great detail examining the hues and shades, the subdivisions of personality traits, the passions, the motivations, the instinctual energies that fuel the way we are in the world. Most people I talk with, including myself, study the Enneagram to recognize habitual behaviors, so that we’d be less likely to repeat outmoded patterns. Another expectation is to develop an attitude of understanding and compassion for ourselves and others. As we become aware of how automatic responses limit us, we can ease the ego's grip. I think it would be beneficial to put more attention on what lies beyond the territory of the personality.
Francis Lucille: I don't see personality as the source of our problems. I see ignorance as the source of our problems. Ignorance is a mistaken identity. It is a belief and a feeling that we, consciousness, what we call I, is the personality. There is nothing wrong with the personality. Ignorance is the mistaken identity. If there is ignorance then all the potential of the personality, God given qualities and distinctive features, are misused and become a slave to the illusion of being a separate entity. When ignorance is removed the personality’s potential is actualized.
JL: So do you see personality as a defense mechanism that we use in order to function in the world while trapped in ignorance?
FL: I see personality as a collection of distinctive features, both physical and psychological, in every human being. There is nothing intrinsically good or bad about having a personality. The problems arise when I believe that I am this set of features or that I am an object, something created. This invisible consciousness that we are, that is hearing and understanding these words in this moment, I believe it is the body/mind. Because this body/mind is fragile, dependent upon the surroundings for its survival, then all kinds of behaviors, and patterns are triggered by this original mistake, the belief that I am an object. This is the original sin, the origin of conflict in society and within ourselves.
JL: Most of us have been living with our original mistake, this original sin, believing it to be our personality or at least acting as if we believed that for a long time. Many of our habits feel firmly cemented and difficult to change. Even after realizing that we are not our personality, don’t we have to go through a process of unwinding our ignorance, spooling off its layers, like string off a ball that has been wound up over a lifetime? Or is this a waste of time and our essential state is always already there?
FL: It depends on what the motivation would be for us to undertake this journey. If this undertaking has a personal goal such as cultivating a better ego, a better personality, an enlightened personality, then it is a mistake and a waste of energy. If we start from the understanding that what we are is consciousness, not an object, not a personality, not a body/mind. We want our motivation to cooperate with this understanding, in other words, to cooperate in the realignment of the body/mind entity with the truth. This is a different story.
This realignment is done for the purpose of celebration and for the sake of truth. In this way a relapse into ignorance will be avoided because we start from a place of truth. Whereas if we try to improve the ego that is built upon a shaky foundation, upon a mistake, any improvement that we can bring to this structure will be as shaky as the foundation.
JL: If the goal is to know the truth, but I’m still immersed in ego and ignorance, without a direct experience of the truth, and merely believing there is a truth; then, am I not stuck with using my intellect, ignorance and personality as the tools with which I define that truth?
FL: At least in this case the goal is the truth. The goal is not an improved personality. But if the goal is an improved personality, then I am perpetuating ignorance. If my goal is the truth then I will eventually find it. But if my goal is to be a better person, a better individual, a happier person, at some point I have to let go of the attachment to the body/mind to access the truth. This is not a gradual process. It is an insight, an in-seeing. There are no steps.